Film Composer & The Singular Voice
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Something Thor said, in the Bill Conti thread I recently started, got me thinking about how we all hear things so differently.
He said he’s never heard anything in Bill Conti’s music that calls attention to itself, or stands out as unique or individual (not in so many words though). I remember him saying something similar, at FSM, about Bruce Broughton, saying he could never recognise a trait in his music that makes one easily recognise it/them.
The above mentioned composers are two who I can quite easily spot/recognise, via their music, in much the same way as say, John Barry or James Horner.
I’m not questioning Thor’s ear. I’m sure there are composers he can spot in an instant that I’d struggle to recognise.
And it’s not really important either.
I’ve loved George Fenton’s film scores for decades, but never been able to get a handle on any individual characteristic or style in his writing.
Also, John Debney and Joel McNeely, two composers I enjoy quite a bit, have only ever sounded, to me, like the other composers they’re aping from the temp track, be it Williams, Goldsmith, Silvestri, Barry, JNH etc.
David Newman sounded a bit like Basil Poledouris, in his title music for THE PHANTOM, but I can always still tell David Newman by his individual voice.
Thoughts on this. Who can you tell/not tell, music-wise? Does it matter to you?It matters a little bit when I’m singling out the TOP composers among my favourites. A singular voice gives them that extra little edge. But it’s just one out of several criteria I use to assess someone’s value to me. There are many composers I thoroughly enjoy, but whose voice isn’t necessarily strong. As I believe we’ve discussed in another thread, I can really appreciate pastiche as an artform onto itself, for example. Vice versa, there are also several composers with a singular voice who I don’t necessarily like.
Some composers I like that aren’t necessarily super idiosyncratic include all those you mention. Also Alfred Newman, Anne Dudley, Annette Focks, Bear McCreary, Benjamin Wallfisch, Carlo Siliotto, Cliff Eidelman….and I could keep going alphabetically through my collection. Sometimes, it’s because they aren’t, really. Their strengths lie elsewhere. Sometimes, it’s because they’re so versatile and eclectic, it’s difficult to find a red thread. And sometimes, it’s because I may not have explored their work well enough. Or I have explored it, but the traits are so discrete, you have to have expert knowledge.
I like my David Newman and John Debney and Joel McNeely quite a bit, but it’s highly unlikely they will ever feature in my top 20.
I think it also has to do with how much you are into a composer’s work. Gladly not everyone is like Barry whom you generally can identifiy over miles.
The more the more you recognize certain habits. Some of those you mentioned I agree. Alfred Newman is often hard to recognize although he has some string writing that sometimes helps. McCreary is very versatile but I often recognize certain habits in his melodies.Actually like composers to surprise me every now and then. Just like I never thought Howord Shore would create a fantasy film score classic.
“I think it also has to do with how much you are into a composer’s work”
Absolutely this!
We obviously pay much more attention to stuff that we connect with, or appears more memorable than another work/style.
The length of time spent listening to something (or someone) also helps build up an inner eye to their creative style.
And yes, some display it far more obviously than others, and some, almost hardly at all.I think Carter Burwell would fall in this category? He has a certain sound, I might call it “breathy”? But he does such a wide variety of film genres and not-so-obvious themes, that I don’t find he has a singular voice, as much as a certain color to his work. Whether it’s Conspiracy Theory, or Rob Roy…True Grit, or Twilight, they’re all so different me.
What makes a composer’s voice disctinct are very often his or her limitations in kraft, education, knowledge. At least in the beginning of their career.
Then, when this leads to some kind of distinct style, they might start to celebrate these limitations and make then their trademark. Hans Zimmer might be a good example here.
Or they might use certain special additional skills they have to enrich their work. Like John Williams infusing his jazz skills with certain chords and rhythm patterns into his music.
In this regard I don’t see much difference with any other musical genre like pop or rock music. There are musicians that shine by creating very sophisitcated compositions and arrangements and another shines by using simple chord patters but a distinct sound and an original but still simple melody.
Both ways can be great and gorgeous or banal and boring. And all of there cases can be successful (depending on your connections).In the end I believe, you can fall in love with the work of any composer if you just dive deep enough into their work, take it serious, listen long and often enough. It is a little bit like Hannibal Lecter saying “We begin by conveting what we see every day.” or like an improv teacher once told me “Fake it ’til you make it!” And falling in love means, you will find in it something that makes it distinct and special for you.
One more thing. I remember, I hear there was an experiment with wine experts who are creating these verbal descriptions of wines. They turned it around and asked these experts to map the descriptions of other experts to the actual wines. And they failed. It didn’t work. For me this showed a little bit how subjective taste is. And the limitations of putting taste into describing or een defining words.
That’s a good point, Gerate.
I see a lot of musicians and artists are usually very proud of their LATEST work, as if that encompasses everything they’re about. Like Goldsmith was with MULAN or Bruce Springsteen with THE GHOST OF TOM JOAD, for example. But for those of us on the sideline, we recognize their TRUE voice as something else, perhaps. Something earlier.
Good point with the wine experiment and taste. Well, sort of a conclusion is probably it all depends on individual knowledge and experience building up to create the taste. And how much a person is able to extend or change upon that.
My ‘familiars’, or composers who I can spot from hearing their stuff (new or old), 9 times out of 10, would be…
My Holy Trinity… Williams, Horner, Goldsmith.
The 3 Newmans (Thomas, David & Randy).
The obvious ones… John Barry, Leonard Rosenman, Maurice Jarre.
Also, Bruce Broughton, Lee Holdridge, Elmer Bernstein, Danny Elfman, Alan Silvestri, Bill Conti, Michael Kamen, JNH.
I’d also flag the likes of Ennio Morricone, Pino Donaggio, Patrick Doyle, more often than not.
There are probably many others I’ve overlooked.
But never George Fenton!! 😉I’m particularly impressed you’re able to flag David Newman, Lee Holdridge and Bruce Broughton. I’ve never been able to do that, although I enjoy their music. The others you mention are pretty easy.
Broughton I can sometimes especially if he is in Americana mode due to the melodies but Newman and Holdridge I won’t be able. But I am not that familiar with their complete work in general.
I have 15 David Newman albums, and am familiar with maybe twice that, but I’m nowhere near Kev’s level of knowledge. Maybe if I were, I’d pick up certain recurring style traits. Same for Holdridge. Broughton, I count myself reasonably well-versed, and maybe – just maybe – I can pick up some things. Like a certain “dry” way of orchestrating (meaning very clear lines). But I’m really grasping at straws. Maybe some day, I’ll discover them.
I can hear certain things in Elmer Bernstein, ’80s Tom Newman, Yuji Nomi, Miklos Rozsa, Morricone, a few others where you immediately know, “That’s him!” It’s like recognizing a person in the dark by his gait; the person himself never recognizes how he moves, but others can register it subconsciously. A lot of music and art becomes more interesting if you can recognize the handwriting. Hacks will repeat something because they don’t know how to do anything else, but the best artists have those signatures which are more intentional, especially in movie music where so much shorthand is necessary to communicate drama in a brief cue. Those signatures could be certain figures, or orchestrational choices, or how he employs his influences.
Leonard Rosenman and his regular use of the ‘pyramid’, for instance, is like his musical slang for vague drama occurring. Some people find its repetition to be really annoying, but if you take it as a holdover from his 12-tone schoolboy days with Schoenberg then you understand why he does it, why he thought it was personally interesting to include, and you can take it as an invitation to explore his influences a little deeper.
I saw an interview with Richard Kraft just the other day where he talked about this.
Leonard Rosenman and his regular use of the ‘pyramid’, for instance, is like his musical slang for vague drama occurring. Some people find its repetition to be really annoying, but if you take it as a holdover from his 12-tone schoolboy days with Schoenberg then you understand why he does it, why he thought it was personally interesting to include, and you can take it as an invitation to explore his influences a little deeper.
That’s the same way I feel about Horner’s danger motif. Ridiculed and disliked all over the place, but I’ve always found it a cute little “device” on an almost mythological level. In other words, the recognition of certain recurring suspense tropes in filmmaking, and a musical device to underline it. Very “meta”, but that’s why I dig it.
The voice of a composer is not unlike the voice of anyone here in this forum. Could you recognize who wrote a post without a name attached? If so, that’s like a composer’s voice you are familiar with. Even if he or she says something never said before, you recognize: yes, that’s that voice, that’s what the person writes.
If not, maybe you’re not too familiar with that voice yet. Or maybe you never paid attention to it. Maybe that person never had anything to say that interested you, so it’s irrelevant to you.
That’s exactly how it is with the singular voice of a composer.
Yes. Much like how one can tell a song by R.E.M to a song by Marc Bolan or David Bowie.
Although film scores will be a bit tougher, cos there’s no Freddie Mercury vocal or distinctive Brian May guitar to highlight the individual trademark.
I’m sure we’ve all been wrong quite a few times too, hearing a score cue and thinking one thing but learning another.
And there are always ‘outlier’ scores as well.
I would never have guessed JEREMIAH was by Bruce Broughton, cos it has none of his familiar signatures within it (I still love it though).
Likewise many synth scores, with the same tech being used (I have that TALES FROM THE CRYPT TV scores compilation and every piece kinda sounds the same, despite the composer disparity – Elfman, Horner, Broughton, Eidelman, Cooder etc – due to the same synths being utilised).I’m sure we’ve all been wrong quite a few times too, hearing a score cue and thinking one thing but learning another.
Yes, exactly, because a voice is unique and can be recognized, but that doesn’t mean it’s predictable or always says the same things in the same way. Which is why sometimes we hear a piece of music and think: “that must be X!” but then it’s “Y”, and so that may be a surprise.
I remember when I watched BITE THE BULLET years ago, I thought: “that must be Jerry Goldsmith who scored that movie… sounds like him”. Turns out it was Alex North, who I had never heard of before. Well, he’s become a favorite of mine.
Likewise many synth scores, with the same tech being used (I have that TALES FROM THE CRYPT TV scores compilation and every piece kinda sounds the same, despite the composer disparity – Elfman, Horner, Broughton, Eidelman, Cooder etc – due to the same synths being utilised).
The Jan Hammer track sounds totally different.
But yes, the rest of the album is a chore, whether it’s synth or not.
I remember when I watched BITE THE BULLET years ago, I thought: “that must be Jerry Goldsmith who scored that movie… sounds like him”. Turns out it was Alex North, who I had never heard of before. Well, he’s become a favorite of mine.
Interestingly once you know North a bit you cannot not hear him on that score specifially 😉
You can also hear Jerry Goldsmith’s main STAR TREK theme in one of the tracks in BITE THE BULLET, pretty much note for note.
Much like Nic with the Goldsmith/North mix-up in BITE THE BULLET, very early in my score listening/collecting days, I came home late one night and caught IRMA LA DOUCE on the TV.
On hearing the score, I was convinced it was by John Williams, who I had just started getting into and quickly set up a tape recorder to grab the music off the TV and onto cassette.
Only after consulting a Halliwell’s Film Guide book much later, did I discover it was scored by his good friend, Andre Previn.Yes. It occurs around the one minute mark of Miss Jones.
Thanks. Just listened to it. Indeed there some similarity to the first part of Goldsmith’s theme at one time in the string lines. But not really used as a “theme” here. But certainly quite possible that Goldsmith draw inspiration from that concsciously or not. After all they were friends if I am not mistaken.
“quite possible that Goldsmith draw inspiration from that concsciously or not. After all they were friends if I am not mistaken”
And don’t forget, Goldsmith was struggling for a main theme.
He’d been sent back to provide an actual theme, under a time crunch, after writing pieces (like The Enterprise) with all the ornate decoration, but no actual theme.
Maybe he popped on BITE THE BULLET and had his eureka moment 🤔I believe in the rarest cases such similarities are a result of concious copying of adapting. Mostly the composer tries something out, then thinks “yeah, that sounds good.” And this click can either come from that the tune sounds familiar because the composer has already heard it somewhere else or because it is just a brillant idea. You never know.
Yes, the power of coincidence, which we talked about here. Goldsmith, for as unique a voice as he had, didn’t appear in a vacuum either.
I think as well especilly since that part in North’s score is not really significantly important. After all the same 12 notes.
It probably gets even harder today to not be influenced by something you heard somewhere sideways. Even more so in pop music when the same chord progessions are used over and over again because they just work and naturally then result in “similar” sound.
Of course, this whole ‘guess the composer from his distinctive style’ lark is never gonna be an exact science.
Just today, I was listening on an old mp3 player and a big, heraldic, majestic/patriotic Main Title came on (it was in my jacket pocket, so I didn’t know who or what it was) and I’m like “this has GOT TO BE by Bill Conti”, it was so similar to his N&S title music and those TV soap drama themes that he did.
Turns out it was AMERIKA by Basil Poledouris, a score I hadn’t heard in a long while.
Fantastic music, nonetheless.I remember watching TWILIGHTS LAST GLEAMING back in the day on TV, but I missed the opening minutes, so I didn’t see any credits. I wondered who scored it and and soon thought: that must be Jerry Goldsmith! Turns out it was, so that’s an early incident where I spotted the composer. Likewise WILD ROVERS and RIO LOBO, both cases where I recognized the composer correctly before the name came up on the title screen.
But I also remember seeing THE EIGER SANCTION and I thought: wow, that’s a cool opening music… who did that… I wondered… Morricone? Schifrin? Whoa, it’s John Williams! Of course, I only had the time until the composer credit in the beginning revealed to me who it was.
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