OSTs vs. C&Cs
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I also think that film music much more than other music is bound to the context that it is writen for. And there is a lot of film music that is even bad or boring in context, some is brillant or at least servicable in the movie context and then there is a small amount that even manages to shine in its best moments outside the movie context.
Once I thought, that this view isn’t very controversial. But then I met film music fans hunting for complete archival releases of relatively blunt scores.
These are probably the ones that felt really hurt by Williams’ statement.I think it’s sometimes a kind of nostalgia tied to when someone personally saw a movie was watched and its music heard. So even some bland score or film) can have a certain value to someone no one else can understand. And then add to that that tastes can be quite different, too. Probably I am too forgiving on some things 😉
I think it’s sometimes a kind of nostalgia tied to when someone personally saw a movie was watched and its music heard. So even some bland score or film) can have a certain value to someone no one else can understand. And then add to that that tastes can be quite different, too. Probably I am too forgiving on some things 😉
To everyone his or her sensitivities. But if that leads to forming an online mob and calling JW senile or stupid because he made a statement that these “sensitive” people don’t like, I say, they don’t deserve to claim that sensitivity for themselves, if they are not even willing to spend a minimum effort to respect others’, even experts’ sensitivities and opinions.
Whatever music one enjoys is a personal thing, and depends on many factors. And of course nostalgia can play a role, but that role isn’t limited to film music. Sure you can have a nostalgic association with a film score, where you grew up loving the movie and so you like the music, but you can just as well have a nostalgic association with that pop song played when you were first in love, or that jazz piece that you associate with that favorite bar you used to go to decades ago.
To everyone his or her sensitivities. But if that leads to forming an online mob (…)
Absolutely, I didn’t want to excuse such behaviour in any form. You can witness such behaviour on social media comments a lot as well…
And of course nostalgia can play a role, but that role isn’t limited to film music.
Certainly! And not even limited to music itself. I just stayed within our niche 😉
I generally prefer a well-curated album, but the fact is, not all album versions are well-curated, IMO.
So, I tend to like to complete, but I don’t listen to them that way. I generally use them to mildly revise or expand an album program. And if there was no album, I try to create one.
But a lot of complete score albums play like a giant track dump, without much thought going into pacing, transitions between tracks, etc.
I’m pretty much all OSTs these days. I sold all of my expansions. After dabbling with them for a few years, I determined I was listening more when it was just OSTs. I make exceptions for scores with no OST (like Poseidon Adventure, or Rio Conchos), or in cases where studio meddling compromised the original release (like CE3K or Apollo 13 ((though actually not Apollo 13 as I’ve gone off Horner)).
I’m pretty much all OSTs these days. I sold all of my expansions. After dabbling with them for a few years, I determined I was listening more when it was just OSTs. I make exceptions for scores with no OST (like Poseidon Adventure, or Rio Conchos), or in cases where studio meddling compromised the original release (like CE3K or Apollo 13 ((though actually not Apollo 13 as I’ve gone off Horner)).
Despite my deep, nostalgic connection to the APOLLO 13 soundtrack (one of the earliest soundtrack CDs I got), I can live perfectly well without the songs and dialogue. Once I found that promo(?) score programme of 59 minutes, with nothing but score, I never looked back. But I do regret selling off my CD, and would probably like to re-acquire it some day.
Sorry to hear that you’ve gone off Horner. Any particular reason?
Minor musicological quibbles that became harder to ignore the more I listened to him. His dodgy voice leading, sometimes intentional like in Apollo 13, presumably to avoid an overly religious feel to the choral writing, but other times not, like in WoK where I just feel he was rushed for time. The way he distends his melodies during moments of underscore, particularly prevalent in Titanic. The new age aspects his music took on in the 90s. His passionate love of direct modulation. And last, but probably least, that he didn’t get the memo about plagiarism vs pastiche.
He knew his way around the orchestra, and when inspired could deliver music of surpassing beauty and subtle detail, but his “eclecticism,” and the other stuff, has gotten a little harder for me to ignore. But I go in waves with these things. I may decide I’m full of crap in 6 months. Apollo 13 was also one of my first, and favorite, soundtrack experiences.
Fair enough.
I can definitely see the “go in waves” thing. There was a period Horner was off my top 10, now he’s firmly in 4th place, cemented after his death. Any misgivings I had suddenly gave way to a deep, new love of his emotional immediacy.
By the way, Horner is definitely a case where less is more. A lot of his 90s efforts noodled on for too long, despite his great ability to create long, suite-like tracks. So here’s a case where even the OST is often on the long side.
I was perusing a new thread on FSM about people keeping or not keeping their OSTs when they acquire a new expanded release.
Of course, this has always been a non-issue for me. I stick with the OST for the rest of my life, unless there’s something radically wrong with it. I almost never buy socalled “upgrades”.
But I do remember my naïvité back when the C&C mayhem started to happen some 25-30 years ago. I thought people would dump their OSTs left and right, for low prices, and I would be at the other end gobbling them up. That never happened. People kept their OSTs, even if they would never play them again, just for nostalgia’s sake. Nostalgia is a formidable force.
I thought people would dump their OSTs left and right, for low prices, and I would be at the other end gobbling them up.
Actually I saw that happen sometimes. Especially if the OST was included in the expansion.
This way I aquired some Horner, Elfman and Newton Howard OSTs.thought people would dump their OSTs left and right, for low prices, and I would be at the other end gobbling them up.
Especially if the OST was included in the expansion.
I did that sometimes for that reason otherwise kept it (like with LOGAN’S RUN, I have the FSM respectively the digital version only). Mostly gave it to the one or two friends who have some film score interest at all or donated it to the public library. Selling didn’t even make sense 15 years ago… I have a few laying around that are on the to go list.
Daniel Pemberton’s PROJECT HAIL MARY was released today (I saw the film earlier this week, it was mediocre). It’s a score with some fine highlights, especially the choral bits, but a soundtrack of TWO FRIGGIN’ HOURS?!? WTF? Album curation is dying all over the place. Oh well, have to set aside time to make my own playlist…..yet again.
If you are not interested enough in the music to spend the time listening to it to come up with a personal playlist then just move on.
You could wait until someone else to make a playlist?
No, I think I’m going to give it a shot myself when I get the energy. I’m used to it now, after many years. Still irks me, though.
This debate is back on my mind lately, as I’ve inadvisably bought a number of expansions lately. I had a little money, and it went to my head lol. I get very attracted to the product. The liner notes, the packaging, etc, but I’ve had to learn the hard way again that c&c is just not for me. I do not run the film in my head. I treat film music as some variant of program and absolute music. It needs to stand on its own for me to be able to spend time with it, and the musical narrative (not the narrative narrative) needs to be considered.
It seems to me most of the great film composers understood this, at least in the album era. It’s weird how many fans do not seem to get what they were going for. I think, although I could be wrong, that a lot of them are film fans first, and can’t really follow the musical logic when the score is out of order.
For me it still depends on the score.
There are basically three different types of score presentaion:A 10 to 20 minute suite in one or multiple movements
A 30 to 70 minutes OST album
or the C&C presentation which can have any type of length depending on the amount of score in the movie.
Of course there is this forth, that I don’t particularly like: A song album with some score tracks.
But for the first three there are several cases where I find for each category there are scores that work best in that format.
Of course there is this forth, that I don’t particularly like: A song album with some score tracks.
But that’s often where you find that 10- or 20-minute suite you mentioned.
I used to have an issue with “songtracks” myself, but have come to accept them for what they are, and even appreciate them in some instances. Like right now, for example, as I listen to BORN ON THE FOURTH OF JULY (although the score portion fills up almost half an hour, so more than most songtracks).
I never understood the market for pop song albums from movies. It just annoys the score fans, and I shudder at the thought of someone picking up Songs from the Matrix, like, unironically.
It’s no surprise that Williams is as deft at creating suites as he is albums. I’m currently buying up all his Phillips and Sony pops and concert cds, one, for the insight it gives into his preferences and inspiration, two, because he knew all the good arrangers, and three, for his ability to program. He gets contrast and “musical flow” better than anyone.
I never understood the market for pop song albums from movies
It is not for us score fans, it is for “normal people” who like a souvenir and those would probably love to remove that “odd instrumental” on these as well…
However there are song albums make sense (to me) especialy from the 80s since they were so prominently song loaded that you hardly noticed any “actual” score anyway or even tied to them. For example TOP GUN, BEVERLY HILLS COPS, ROCKY IV. Interestingly ROCKY IV is the only of these where I actually bought the real score later.
Like right now, for example, as I listen to BORN ON THE FOURTH OF JULY
That is one of the rare cases where I really like the album. The selection of songs is great. And if I just want to listen to the score tracks I start at the second half of the album.
On the other had I dislike Williams’ JFK album. The alternation of score and songs doesn’t work here for me.On the other had I dislike Williams’ JFK album. The alternation of score and songs doesn’t work here for me.
I agree on that, it really disturbs the flow here. I do understand they may places songs and score mix as they appear (if they do) but best separate sections.
There’s a couple of things that comes to mind when reading the recent comments.
Firstly, I like how a lot of the expanded releases are now being released as digital releases. I can now listen to the digital version online and decide whether the expansion adds anything. If it does then I buy the expanded CD, if it doesn’t then I buy any individual tracks I want. Tyler’s TIMELINE is a good example and the original CD is one I love. But the expansion doesn’t add much except for a couple of tracks where the themes appear and adds something.
Also, thinking about original CDs that have been released as albums as curated highlights albums. I sometimes think of these albums where the content of the album is based on tracks that are only available at the time of release. I can’t recall examples but aren’t there scores where tracks hadn’t even been recorded when the CD was released. These examples must have been frustrating for composers and fans of the curated album?
I never understood the market for pop song albums from movies
There is a great lot of people who neither collect score albums nor pop albums. They only listen to songs on the radio or in movies. Often enough they don’t care for the artists but identify that song with the movie.
These people by these song samplers. I often bought those because one of my favorite Bands wrote a song especially for a movie and the song was only available on the soundtrack album.I can now listen to the digital version online and decide whether the expansion adds anything. If it does then I buy the expanded CD, if it doesn’t then I buy any individual tracks I want.
Yes, that is indeed great. But actually if it is available digitally I most would rather buy the download and not the CD anymore.
I can’t recall examples but aren’t there scores where tracks hadn’t even been recorded when the CD was released. These examples must have been frustrating for composers and fans of the curated album?
If I remember right David Arnold’s TOMORROR NEVER DIES is such an example as the original album misses the last part (half or third) of the score.
There is a great lot of people who neither collect score albums nor pop albums.
I used to call these “radio listeners” who just listen to what is played. Probably nowdays I need to call these “playlist or algorhithm listeners” 😉
Surprised to read that so many here don’t do playlists. As one who grew up with LPs, I think playlists are a major advantage of digital. I have no qualms about omitting tracks I don’t like, and adding others that I do. And I’m talking all genres, not just film music.
Back to the original question, I also think that when people came of age factors into the response. Ask any Mancini fan what they think of his 60s “soundtrack” albums relative to the corresponding film scores, and you’re likely to get the same answer. Even Mancini felt that he got the soundtrack albums wrong.
I make playlists all the time, and have become reasonably good at it, but I’d rather not. I’d rather the album comes ready-made by the composer or producer. But quite often, I have to if I am to have any kind of meaningful relationship to an album.
Those old Mancini albums are ideal ways to present film music, in my opinion. But I understand that if you want the music exactly as it was in the film, they may cause frustration.
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