Prejudice of the Melodic
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There were quite a few albums where Goldsmith did specific album arrangements or made recordings just for the album. Apart from the ones mentioned stuff like HOUR OF THE GUN, CAPRICORN ONE, FIERCE CREATURES, UNDER FIRE, The FLYNN movies, and many more.
Yes. Still Goldsmith’s special arrangements rather went into a pop direction. And Williams more into a classical direction. And that is then my personal taste. I dived into movie scores as kind of a subgenre of classical music and therefore have a preference for more classical scores. And you are right. Especially in his earlier days Goldsmith used to deliver there wonderful works. My favourite scores of his are then also the more traditional ones like Studds Lonigan, Hour of the Gun, Rios Conchios, Black Patch and from his later scores ones like L.A. Confidential, The Final Conflict, but also Legend, The Mummy and Alien. But when he was asked to “do the Williams” like in Star Trek (after Star Wars) or Supergirl (after Superman) or Quartermain (after Indiana Jones) I find his score MUCH less good and interesting than Williams’ originals.
My interest in classical music and film music also is intertwined. I think that SUPERMAN is both the better film and the richer score than SUPERGIRL (though I like both scores), and Quartermain is no match for Indy, but STAR TREK – THE MOTION PICTURE is, for me, perhaps the greatest film score ever written. Especially for the V’ger music, that’s among the music that made me become interested in film music. Though STAR WARS is up there too. STAR WARS is great music as well, and certainly also an initiating score for me.
From Star Trek I like Irina’s Theme, but never liked the main theme, that was reused for the Next Generation TV show.
And I liked the music of the Klingon attack until I recently found out, that this is pretty much exactly copied from The Wind and the Lion.From Goldsmith’s Star Trek scores my favourite is First Contact by far.
I like the Klingon music, but I don’t find it has even similarity to anything in THE WIND AND THE LION?
I love all the Goldsmith STAR TREK scores, including FIRST CONTACT, which would be my least favorite of the bunch though. 🙂
My favorite STAR TREK score is clearly the motion picture, I don’t have a problem with the theme at all, but it’s the V’ger/Cloud music that sets it apart as a favorite. 2nd would probably be STAR TREK V – THE FINAL FRONTIER, which opened up a whole palette of new motifs into the Star Trek music that would be used, then INSURRECTION (which would be my second favorite Star Trek movie), then NEMESIS, and then FIRST CONTACT.Orchestral scores with big, brassy themes was definitely what got me into film music in the first place, but that isn’t really that important anymore. Sure, I still can enjoy a big orchestral score, but it has to be done really well to hold my attention these days. So yeah, I’ve gradually been drawn to quieter and more textural, ambient and moody stuff, and recognizable themes are no longer a requirement. But of course, this also has to be done right. Just some dude hitting some buttons or running a program on his synth won’t cut it 😊.
I have no problem with dissonant or atonal stuff either – I often found them difficult to listen to when I was younger, but now, if done right, instead of finding them disconcerting, they just «tickle the ear» and can be very enjoyable.
Some examples of ambient, textural scores I’ve enjoyed a lot are APOLLO: ATMOSPHERES AND SOUNDTRACKS (Brian Eno), SOLARIS (Cliff Martinez) and BLADE RUNNER (Vangelis). (BLADE RUNNER does have some themes, though)
And I liked the music of the Klingon attack until I recently found out, that this is pretty much exactly copied from The Wind and the Lion.
There is a similarity, sure, but it’s basically just an interval (open fifth) being repeated several times, functioning as a fanfare-ish motif in both cases. The instrumentation, rhythm and overall sound is very different between the two scores, and I wouldn’t go as far as calling one a copy of the other.
Orchestral scores with big, brassy themes was definitely what got me into film music in the first place, but that isn’t really that important anymore. Sure, I still can enjoy a big orchestral score, but it has to be done really well to hold my attention these days. So yeah, I’ve gradually been drawn to quieter and more textural, ambient and moody stuff, and recognizable themes are no longer a requirement. But of course, this also has to be done right. Just some dude hitting some buttons or running a program on his synth won’t cut it 😊.
This reminds me — I remember many years ago, you and I had a very different opinion of SAVING PRIVATE RYAN. Of course, it has themes, but it’s rather static and slow-developing in nature. I didn’t like that as a restless youngster, while you recognized its more subtle details. Well, these 20+ years later, I can see more clearly what you saw, and now love it. Don’t know how that relates to the discussion at hand, but I just thought of that.
Okay, that interval is used in other movies too (like the un-used TIMELINE), but the Klingon theme is very different in tone from the Wind and The Lion motif (which opens the score and is developed through).
I have listened to music most of my life, I became “serious” about it in my early teens and spent lots of money (well, lot of money for me) on first LPs and then CDs. I never “lost” my affection to a piece of music I enjoyed… STAR TREK-THE MOTION PICTURE and STAR WARS were the first film scores I ever got to listen to on soundtrack albums away from the film, and I never stopped enjoying them one bit.
I also enjoy textural scores, like Cliff Martinez SOLARIS (which I incidentally just listened to a couple of days ago), but it’s a completely different listen.
Different types of music demand a different “setting”. I remember conductor David Zinman saying in an interview, when his recording of Gorecky’s Third Symphony actually hit the charts, that it’s because of recording technology. No one would go to the concert hall to listen to a piece where nothing happens for 20 minutes, but at home, it unfolds its serenity. I tend to agree. For example, one of my all time favorite composers is Mahler, I have all of his symphonies and song cycles in various recordings and read several books about him and his music. Yet I don’t listen to Mahler all that often, because his music demand attention. You can’t listen to Mahler “on the side”, that’s annoying. His music unfolds like a movie where you can’t afford to miss a scene, or you’re out. SOLARIS, on the other hand, is like a warm “bath” of a score, you can just relax, perhaps talk a bit on the couch or browse the net or in a magazine. It doesn’t demand attention, it’s setting a mood. There’s of course lots of music in between.Also, when I started out listening to music, I had certain composer as a starting point, like Wagner, Beethoven on the classical, and Williams, Goldsmith on the film music side. Some composers did not interest me that much right away, like Mozart or Bach or Vivaldi (I was in my early 30s when I first heard “The Four Seasons”, which was kinda a funny moment). Composers I liked right away were Stravinsky and even Schönberg, whereas it took me a long time to even pay attention to British composers such as Ralph Vaughan-Williams… today, I love his music a lot. So over time I grew and learned “more” music, but I never stoppend liking any piece of music, because not matter what, I always remember why I liked it in the first place.
Great post, Nick! You describe very well how different types of music require different “listening contexts” and various degrees of attention. Totally agree about Mahler (one of my favorite classical composers, too!). You just can’t have Mahler on in the background, and his symphonies needs to be listened to in full (although I might allow myself to give the gorgeous Adagio movement from his 5th symphony a stand-alone listen 😉).
And as you say, things like SOLARIS is something different altogether, and works fine as background music, but I sometimes find it rewarding to give this my full attention, too. With minimalist music even the smallest shifts, like a subtle chord change, become important, and these things can be fascinating to follow.
And indeed, STAR WARS and STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE were among the scores that ignited my passion for film music too, and they’ll probably remain among my favorites forever.
This reminds me — I remember many years ago, you and I had a very different opinion of SAVING PRIVATE RYAN. Of course, it has themes, but it’s rather static and slow-developing in nature. I didn’t like that as a restless youngster, while you recognized its more subtle details. Well, these 20+ years later, I can see more clearly what you saw, and now love it. Don’t know how that relates to the discussion at hand, but I just thought of that.
Right! Had I been much younger the first time I heard SAVING PRIVATE RYAN, that probably would have been my reaction, too. It’s fascinating how one’s tastes and preferences change and develop. I guess (hope..?) it has something to do with maturity? 😊
nd as you say, things like SOLARIS is something different altogether, and works fine as background music, but I sometimes find it rewarding to give this my full attention, too. With minimalist music even the smallest shifts, like a subtle chord change, become important, and these things can be fascinating to follow.
Oh, for sure. It’s very hypnotic score that can pull you “all in” too. Like Philip Glass, who opened a whole new world of music for me when I encountered KOYANISQAATSI (a movie I’ve seen with the Glass Ensemble performing the music live… one of the “movie concerts” that made sense).
I like the movie too. I’ve even read the novel SOLARIS twice (last time a couple of years ago on vacation). Martinez music is very introspective, meditative, I like it a lot.
I have no problem with dissonant or atonal stuff either – I often found them difficult to listen to when I was younger, but now, if done right, insteauzzd of finding them disconcerting, they just «tickle the ear» and can be very enjoyable.
That’s interesting. Because for me it appears to be the other way around. I used to be more into dissonant music when I was younger.
One of my all time favourite orchestral works always was Prokofiev’s Piano Concerto No.2.
But when I recently listened to it again after almost 10 years I suddenly realized how much dissonance is in there, which never bothered me. Suddenly it felt particularly bulky.
I still know why I loved it, but I realized that my musical sensitivities changed.Same but the other way around with some stuff of Ennio Morricone. Some of is music I found terribly sentimantal and cheesy in my younger years. Now I enjoy that a lot.
I don’t think — as far as I can conceive — that my musical sensitivities have ever changed. They have expanded, no doubt, but I don’t think they have ever really changed. Heck, as I sometimes note, I attended two kindergartens, three elementary schools, and four high schools… so in a way, music is the one constant in my life. Even the earliest pieces of music I remember enjoying… stuff like the “Pink Panther Theme”… I enjoy to this day. 🙂
As many I got to film music via the catchy hummable themes and even more pop orientated things via the 80s as discussed on our “origin” topic. The more dissonant/atonal music I had to work on to get into. It’s still challenging to listen to but it can be rewarding. I think my musical sensitives just broadened over time but I never stopped liking what I liked before.
That’s interesting. For me the broadening of my musical experience was alwayws accompanied with variations and changes in preferences.
Suddenly I couldn’t like things anymore, that I liked before, because I realised how comparably dull they were in comparison or that they were just copies of what I later learned was this or that original. That’s for me a part of the journey.
Of course from a certain point on you don’t commit as many youthful sins anymore and my preferences became more stable.But you, Malte and Nick, seem to have had a quite safe and constantly progressing journey through the wild oceans of music to have never experiecned anything, that made you revise your one or other oppinion on any musical piece.
For me a new discovery of anything fundamentally new always also has an impact on my experience and reception of what I already know, for the good or the bad.
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