FSM # 3: The $1000.000 Question: What is good [film] music?
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You are, as a recipient of art, free to dismiss or reject or laud or accept or cheer or jeer any piece of art in any way you wish. That, I think, is your prerogative as audience.
Right. But that is something different than claiming “There is no originality or creativity in this”.
I am not saying such judgement should not be made. I just mean, I am a little careful with such claims.
I just mean, I am a little careful with such claims.
Sure. I try to be careful with all claims regarding art, especially negative ones, when I criticize it.
I didn’t intend to launch a whole “what is art?” discussion (some people say that a banana peel on the wall is art, when it’s in a gallery, so who’s to say?), but rather that aesthetic pleasure (or displeasure) can come via various means. Originality is certainly one of them, but so are the others. A piece of art can be very unoriginal, yet ignite all the other aspects of art appreciation.
John Debney’s CUTTHROAT ISLAND isn’t terribly original, but packs an emotional wallop in its entertaining pastiche of pirate action adventure music. At least it did when I was younger. So by igniting those other criteria, I still consider it a piece of art, with an aesthetic-emotional effect on me. The other criteria are just as important as originality. It doesn’t ceaze to be a piece of art just because it’s lacking in the originality area.
But John Debney’s CUTHROAT ISLAND is still original in some ways, it’s not bereft of fresh ideas of its own. It’s a classic swashbuckling score for a classic swashbuckling movie, but it adds a few elements of its own. The music fuses perhaps Korngold‑style heroism with (then) contemporary rhythmic drive and aggressive brass writing, its both both old‑fashioned and modern, the inspiration is classic film scores, but the orchestration is more modern. The central theme is energetic and rhythmically propulsive, not a pastiche; Debney threads it through varied ideas to avoid monotony.
Well, sure. While EXACT REPLICAS are interesting in and of themselves (like those art forgers), that’s fairly rare. I mostly think about composers who emulate a certain style or idiom. Their melodies and many other things are their own. Like JNH tapping into baroque music in RESTORATION, or Williams’ “Exultate Justi” (which my dad believed was Händel when I first played it to him). I think there’s an artform to that. Not original in the least, but ticks off many of the other criteria mentioned earlier.
Yeah to me CUTTTHROAT ISLAND is actually an intended hommage and not just a lazy pastiche. Even if Debney often may more of a great craftsman and I cannot instantly recognize him like others.
I think especially in film score terms the originality may not in the music itself but the context of the music in the film.
Originality is more of a bonus, but for me not essential. I think, it is fairly easy to do something noone else has done before. But doing something good and interesting, that noone else has done before, that’s not easy at all.
I would say, Ludwig Göransson really has a distinct musical voice. But I don’t like at all what he does. So, I probably rather like composers Emulation a style I like (if the do it in a good way) than composers thying to redefine a musical idiom.
That is why I never liked Göransson’s MANDALORIAN score but easily warmed up with Giacchino’s ROGUE ONE score.Oh god…
The two Gs that are to be avoided in Thor’s presence 😉 You probably will hate that Mark Isham recently praised Göransson’s ODYSSE on Insta.
easily warmed up with Giacchino’s ROGUE ONE score.
Haven’t heard ODYSSEY but dare to admit I actually have the original CD of ROGUE ONE (A bargain it was to my defences). Last Giacchino I bought on CD actually…
The two Gs that are to be avoided in Thor’s presence 😉 You probably will hate that Mark Isham recently praised Göransson’s ODYSSE on Insta.
Yes, Jon alerted me to that on Facebook. Isham needs to have his ears cleaned.
For me the definition of good film music is quite simple: Film music is good, when it is strong enough to stand on its own two feet, when it manages to pull people into a concert hall to hear it performed live or when it can get played on the radio.
I know, this definition contains some very subjective parameters. But so does music in general, so it is on purpose.
To me film music is not required to work in the radio or concert hall or otherwise standalone. As much as I like it it is just not made for that purpose. It only should do that if released it as such (here I am in Thor’s camp) 😉 Quite some great film music in the past did certainly (gladly). But of course it is also highly subjective if a certain music works for standalone listening…
I have a glitch in my mind that makes me appreciate a score in-context that I would never even dream of listening to alone (TERMINATOR, much of Mica Levi and Hildur Gudnadottir’s stuff, for example), but a score that succeeds both places will always get the big bucks from me. In fact, I’m satisfied with it JUST being a good listen, I don’t care if it’s pants in the film.
That’s the thing. There is a lot of film music that does its job well in context, especially nowadays that I never could care for musically. It’s just supportive sound. But just because it supports the action on screen appropriately it does not fall into my category of “good film music”.
Maybe because I rather understand the term as opposite to “just some random film music”.
If I regard “good film music” as opposite of “bad film music” so music that does a bad job in supporting the picture, by that of course you are widening the scale a lot.
But I would probably also call music “good film music” even though it rather distracts from the picture but I like it musically.
But I understand, that might be just me.But I would probably also call music “good film music” even though it rather distracts from the picture but I like it musically.
I am not sure if that then is “good film music” if this is rather unintentional and even interfering with the movie. Of course that is also highly subjective…
To me these are two different terms:
– good film music => doing its primary job
– good music => holds up standaloneIf both match which it gladly quite often did at least in older times awesome!
I would say any “great film music” must be “great music”, and all great music must be able to stand on its own as pure music.
There is no “great film score” that is not also a great music score in itself. Just like there is no “great ballet score” that is not also a great music score in itself.
So in that sense, there is no great film music that cannot also be enjoyed away from the film.
However, there is a lot of serviceable film music — in fact and for obvious reasons, a far, far greater amount of film music falls into this category than in the “good to great” category. Serviceable film music may be music that gets the job done, but noting else. Film music that may push the right buttons at the right time, but that is not very interesting as music apart from its pure functionality. I would personally never call such film score “great”, merely serviceable.
Yes, and that’s an important distinction to make. When I mentioned those scores I enjoyed in-context (TERMINATOR, Levi, Gudnadottir), they must be seen as different and superior to those serviceable scores that are just there, as wallpaper. Neither of these have much value (to me) as a standalone listen, but the first is at least intriguing and original as film music.
Afterall films are a joint venture art work (ok, not all films are art either ;-)) so parts like film music often have or can have less meaning by itself.
But of course I agree in general and I like to be all film music great music. After all that is why I and we all fell in love with film scores in the first place!
I mentioned before some classic film composer (thought it was Waxman in one Tony Thomas book but can’t find it there… ) that in film music a single note can have great meaning but would have none in a concert hall. That does not exactly change anything but I think it has a point.
Btw, as a side note: Just recently stumbleled upon a youtube video by someone young who saw Star Wars EP4 the first time. In general the opinion was it holds up pretty good although being “old”. One thing that was specifially mentioned as a bit old fashioned was the music use to foreshadow/already tell what is coming next. But it was also specifally mentioned this did not mean the music was bad.
It’s of course always subjective what music one likes to listen to to begin with. Even STAR WARS by John Williams, which is probably by and large considered a great film score and one of the most popular film scores of all time, is in the grander scope of things listened to by few people on its own. Most people listen to “pop” music (which is why it’s “pop”pular. 🙂 ).
Personally I think THE TERMINATOR is an excellent score, and I enjoy the music on its own very much, but it may obviously not be everybody’s cup of tea either.
Which is why truly great film music always survives as great music outside the film. Anything that doesn’t is merely functional, not great.
I understand, that my take on good film music doesn’t make much sense in a general assessment on cinema and the cinematic tool boxes. A reason might be that over the years my access to film music parted more and more from my movie experiences. I more and more didn’t chose the scores I listened to by movie but rather by composer or genre or style. Less and less Was actually having watched the movie a criterion.
In the meantime, when I scroll through the amazon cinemathek I pick movies to my watch list, especially older ones for the reason, that I own the soundtrack album but never saw the film before.
Most people listen to “pop” music (which is why it’s “pop”pular. 🙂 ).
Although originally it is not even a style, just a label. So even Star Wars is of course pop music 😉
I more and more didn’t chose the scores I listened to by movie but rather by composer or genre or style. Less and less
In the meantime, when I scroll through the amazon cinemathek I pick movies to my watch list, especially older ones for the reason, that I own the soundtrack album but never saw the film before.
Yes, I have that of course as well! And I also watched my share of movies because of the composer. Just to name that Goldsmith 😉
A reason might be that over the years my access to film music parted more and more from my movie experiences. I more and more didn’t chose the scores I listened to by movie but rather by composer or genre or style. Less and less Was actually having watched the movie a criterion.
That was my way pretty much as soon as I started to listen and buy film scores… the first film scores I ever listened to apart from the movie were STAR WARS and STAR TREK – THE MOTION PICTURE, borrowed from a friend and copied to audio cassette tape. There was no turning back anymore… I soon then started buying film music LPs on my own… based on composer rather than movie. I must have bought every Jerry Goldsmith LP back then I could get my hands on. In fact, I selected to see certain movies based on composer, rather than buying soundtracks based on films I saw. 🙂
Yes, Jon alerted me to that on Facebook. Isham needs to have his ears cleaned.
Sorry, Thor, Isham just also praised the Spiderman score by the other G who must not be named on this board 😉
Mark Isham called Michael Giacchino’s score for SPIDERMAN: A BRAND NEW DAY excellent.
He posted a reel just to praise it.To me these are two different terms:
– good film music => doing its primary job
– good music => holds up standaloneIf both match which it gladly quite often did at least in older times awesome!
I was just thinking of your statement, Malte, about these two different terms, ‘good film music’ and ‘good music’, by which it is simply impossible to decide, if a film score is good or not, if you haven’t watched the film. By my definition, I can call a soundtrack great even though I haven’t experienced it in context of the movie.
Opening up categories, the way I see it, there can be one of several things true about a film score:
Possible and perfect:
Great film score and great stand alone music. (Perfection.)
Also possible:
Bad film score, but great stand alone music. (When the music just doesn’t work in the movie but is great on its own.)
Also possible:
Sufficient film score, but uninteresting on its own. (Functional music, unintrusive, pushes the right buttons, but nothing one listens to on its own.)Also possible:
Bad film score, bad as stand alone music. (No explanation needed, I presume. That music sucks. Hard.)Also possible of course:
Countless in-betweens of neither all out great nor all out bad, whatever…There is, however, a category that doesn’t exist:
Not possible:
Great film score, but bad stand alone music.
(That’s just not something that can conceivably exist.)Not possible:
Great film score, but bad stand alone music.
(That’s just not something that can conceivably exist.)There are many such examples, some of which I just mentioned earlier.
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