Do you separate between person and composer?
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Jon Aanensen.
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8. August 2025 klokken 14:34 #5361
Thor Joachim HagaNøkkelmesterCurrently listening again to “schmalz-meister” Mark McKenzie’s Jesus propaganda score THE GREATEST MIRACLE, and kinda loving it (not on the level of DURANGO or BLIZZARD, but still). I have this weird attraction to religious propaganda scores – A.R. Rahman’s wonderful Islam propaganda film score MUHAMMAD: THE MESSENGER OF GOD is another example. I feel dirty for listening to them and also liking them, LOL. Suppose the same applies to PASSION OF THE CHRIST by devout Christian John Debney as well. But that’s a quality film as well, not just score.
But it reminded me of an interesting issue — do you separate between troublesome personalities/productions and the enjoyment of the work itself?
I do, up to a certain point. I can listen to Wagner and Herrmann and Michael Jackson and get immense pleasure out of that, despite the troublesome personalities that have created the music. Autonomy of the text and all that.
But then there’s a point where I pause. Whenever Gary Glitter’s “Another Rock and Roll Christmas” comes on on a Christmas album I own, I cringe. And I was pissed off when Dennis McCarthy – a composer I’ve always respected – scored a Trump propaganda film a few years ago. Made me want to boycott his entire work (although STAR TREK: GENERATIONS has remained in my digital collection).
How do you relate to this?
8. August 2025 klokken 14:47 #5362
Malte MüllerNøkkelmesterInteresting question… Quite some artists – especially those who don’t only work for hire – seem to be or have been complicated personalities. While I feel the same regarding your examples especially since I don’t know any composer personally, its hard to separate the artist from its work since the work transports a message. Maybe it is different on more “commerical” or work for hire artists.
I once read a book about film music on “famous” films from the dark NS times in Germany and lots of composers did work for propaganda movies. According to the book they even musically/technically actually quite good but of course the message they transported was not. Not sure if you can listen to that without context…
It’s always hard to judge if people “arrange” within a political environment. Regarding McCarthy and Trump. Maybe it was just a work of hire, he needed money and/or he believed in it to some extent, too. Don’t know. In general US americans seem to have a totally different relationship to their country and patriotism than Europeans. Hollywood movies and series certainly are full of that since for ever with more or less extend. And even Goldsmith scored Rambo 2 + 3… I somehow just take it as it is often…
8. August 2025 klokken 15:50 #5363
Nick ZwarDeltakerI don’t check if a composer’s political, ethical, religious or philosophical believes align with my own. I mean, sometimes I know of course. Take Richard Wagner, by all means a “problematic” personality. Yet the problems are not manifest in his music, which is glorious.
The thin is we’re all flawed, all human, all fallible. You start purging art based on the sins of the artist, you end up with silence. There’d be no movies to watch and no film scores to be performed if everybody in cast and crew and orchestra needed to be sinless.
That doesn’t mean I would accept, support or tolerate everything, certainly not. If someone actively supports a cause that not only goes highly against my own convictions but even opposes them, and that even shows in the art, it’s less likely that person will find my support.
But Bernard Herrmann? He sure was a thorny, spiky personality, but I don’t remember anything he did that would make me appreciate his music less.8. August 2025 klokken 16:06 #5364
Thor Joachim HagaNøkkelmesterGood points!
Yes, I meant Herrmann’s thorny (often rude) personality, but I realize that’s a different thing than having troublesome political or religious convictions. I suppose I basically meant all kinds of iffy personalities in general, and how that corresponds to your appreciation (or lack thereof) of their music.
8. August 2025 klokken 16:07 #5365
SigbjørnDeltakerThe ten commandments is nice, but they could have cut a few.
8. August 2025 klokken 16:09 #5366
Thor Joachim HagaNøkkelmesterThe ten commandments is nice, but they could have cut a few.
Cut a few commandments?
8. August 2025 klokken 18:20 #5367
Malte MüllerNøkkelmesterYes, I meant Herrmann’s thorny (often rude) personality, but I realize that’s a different thing than having troublesome political or religious convictions.
I think that are really two different things. If someone is just not an easy person like Herrmann I don’t care that much (Goldsmith is said not to be that easy at times, too). There is a saying that you should never meet your idols as you may be disappointed 😉
If I like a work by someone new I certainly read about that composer in general.
Take Richard Wagner, by all means a “problematic” personality. Yet the problems are not manifest in his music, which is glorious.
It seems the Wagner researcher in general have no agreement if or if not. I don’t know his work good enough. I basically can only listen to the instrumental parts which are glorious (as I am not a big fan of opera singing in general)
9. August 2025 klokken 09:05 #5375
SigbjørnDeltakerCut a few commandments?
It’s a very long movie.
9. August 2025 klokken 12:05 #5378
GerateWohlDeltakerI would say yes. I separate that mostly.
An other way around example. From everything I know and hear from articles, interviews and so on, I think that Hnas Zimmer is a really nice person. Highly creative and respectable business man who also contributes a lot to the industry and community and his fans. And I would really like to like what he does.
And I mean, he comes from my home country.
But actually, he stands more or less for a movie music that I despise with heart and soul. If you collected all the flaws from all soundtracks that I ever heard, take everything that I find defective, boring and sloppy in film scores and try to distil it into an own musical figure it pretty much is 80 to 90% of his work, at least the parts, that I know.
It breaks my heart. But that’s how it is.
How many films I felt were really pulled down by his music.
And the best I can expect is, that in movie context I find his music somehow ok and not too disturbing.
And I know, that’s more my problem than his.
But that’s how I feel.
Still I think, he is a nice guy and Hollywood is probably a better place with him than without him.9. August 2025 klokken 15:02 #5380
Thor Joachim HagaNøkkelmesterInteresting twist on the premise, Geratewohl, but it’s true — I have it the same way with Giacchino. Seems like a super nice guy; I just can’t stand his music. So definitely a person/music separation going on there.
(of course, it always pains my heart a bit when you and Sigbjørn and others are so hard on Zimmer, who is my second favourite film composer of all time — I often feel like you’ve just heard his music in the last 20 years, and not so much of the more musical, accessible stuff in the 90s and earlier…but hey, to each their own and all that).
9. August 2025 klokken 20:49 #5388
SigbjørnDeltakerI do enjoy some of his scores, but more 20-30 years ago than now. For example The Rock, The Lion King, The Gladiator (co-composed with Holst and Prokofiev), and The DaVinci Code. Undeniably catchy music. But also annoying.
31. August 2025 klokken 12:05 #5571
slintDeltakerI am much more lenient about composers for hire and the distant past. I’m happy to listen to Wagner and composers from the 1930s with dubious political association, just from an “historian” perspective. I guess the same for the 1960s, 1980s, and I’ve never deleted an artist from my collection; i do trace a line between this (my existing collection = the past) and the future. However, I’ve stopped following or bought new albums by many artists because of their behaviour. Sexual predators are an instant no, and political statements can lead to a no, but film score composers have some leniency if they just indirectly support a cause by being hired to score a questionable film.
31. August 2025 klokken 19:30 #5574
Malte MüllerNøkkelmesterThere was once a video game composer – I don’t name here on purpose – who completely vanished because of some misbehaviour. Still like some of his scores from years ago.
(…) just indirectly support a cause by being hired to score a questionable film.
You could say a bit opportunistic and even thoughtless maybe depending on what it is and perhaps sometimes you don’t know when being hire how a films turns out… At least someone supporting a questionable film because he actually believes in it is technically consequent…
1. September 2025 klokken 18:54 #5575
Dr. JacobyDeltakerIf you have records by only nice people, you will have a boring record collection.
13. November 2025 klokken 15:23 #6498
Thor Joachim HagaNøkkelmesterI see that BSX just reissued Jack Nitzsche’s RAZOR’S EDGE, a score I have yet to check out.
But it reminded me of this thread, since Nitzsche has some controversial elements in his personal life – like attacking his own wife in 1979 (the wife was the late Carrie Snodgrass, who – incidentally – I saw on TV just last night, as I’ve started watching X-FILES again; she appeared in an early episode there). More details on his Wiki page.
That still doesn’t make me like things like STARMAN or ONE FLEW OVER THE CUCKOO’S NEST any less, though.
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