OSTs vs. C&Cs
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I don’t do playlists either. I want a good record producer, preferably the original composer, to put the album together for me. I wouldn’t buy a DVD/Blu-Ray of a film and edit all the bits I like into a personalised mini-film.
Same here. Alas, I’m “forced” to make playlists sometimes, if there is no previous OST to build from, and sometimes the tracks on a C&C aren’t even the same as on the OST, so there’s no way to replicate it. So I have to make do with whatever meager whittling skills I have, if I want to have any kind of enjoyment out of a score. I listen to albums, not archives™.
I normally don’t use playlists either, nor do I re-sequence or edit albums. I expect albums to function as a musical listening experience on their own. So unless the release screwed up and sequenced the album in a way that that makes no sense (musically…. soundtrack albums were often sequenced “commercially” rather than “musically”), as in Morricone’s THE UNTOUCHABLES. Or if the cues just don’t fit, as in “That’s real music” from the Prometheus BASIC INSTINCT. The latter is presented chronologically, when it should have been on there as a bonus track, as it just is not part of the actual “BASIC INSTINCT” musical fabric.
I listen to albums, not archives™
I listen to both! Agree with almost everything said in this thread by Nick and Graham.
Sometimes I want a curated album, sometimes I want to study the complete work, as an actual film music “study item”. Agree very much that it is a case-by-base thing. Not just composer by composer, but also how personally invested I am in the particular film or score. John Williams I almost always prefer as C&C (sorry Thor :D). Agree what was said about Zimmer as well, but then he does something like THE LION KING, where I absolutely want the C&C of the Disney Legacy edition, with the whole evolving flow of the songs and the score, and how the themes bounce off each other.What I actually don’t care for is when they have the original album first on a disc, then just stick in all the non-album tracks at the end as “bonus tracks”. That leaves me with the task of crafting my own C&C album or playlist, which to me just feels wrong (not to mention time-consuming)… This is sadly the case with BIG FISH, one of my favourite Elfman scores. The original album was so full of pop/rock tracks (by other artists), and the score part was really just the second half of the album (if not less). When the Elfman/Burton box set was released in 2010, they dropped all the pop/rock tracks that originally started the album, which left the “original album” part ridiculously short, and then added all the other cues as “bonus tracks” at the end. That felt like a really bad compromise, unfinished and kind of butchered. I still want a C&C release of that score. And please, for the STAR WARS prequels as well… 🙂
John Williams is interesting, as there are some scores by him I prefer on the original album edit, some I prefer as full film scores, and some where I find I continue to enjoy both.
For example, E.T.-The Extra Terrestrial is a great soundtrack album, flows well, so I still enjoy that. However, it omits some of the darker material Williams composed for the movie, so I like the full score as well. I play either. On the other hand, the original album for CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND was quite a disappointment, it’s much better presented on the expanded Arista or La-La Land albums, so I don’t play the original album cut at all anymore. I don’t play the OST for JAWS anymore either; I know it has its adherents, and that’s fine, but I far prefer the full film score for that one. It is much more savage, brutal, more Stravinsky-like, and so I much prefer that. Adios, album edit. Same with A.I., that was an awful album, not just omitting much substance of the composition, but instead including one track twice (which of course reduces re-use fees quite a bit), and putting the (more or less) same pop song twice on the album, once even in the album flow.
In case of MONSIGNOR, Williams rearranged his material a bit for the album, but it’s mostly there. Both the film score and the album are just fine the way they are, but I prefer the album arrangement Williams did for listening purposes.
One of my favorite Williams scores is ROSEWOOD, and here you have two very different albums. The original Sony OST was basically a Gospel Choir album with orchestral interludes, I enjoy that very much. The film score has far less choral songs and is more dramatic in tone, I very much like that as well. So that’s one case where the expanded film score edition La-La Land put out is not a mere “expansion” as in “longer”, but both albums have a very different tone. That was quite a revelation when La-La Land put the film score out, I’m very happy to have picked that one up.I agree on CLOSE ENCOUNTERS and ET, although only have the older expansions of these and not the Lalaland ones. The complete JAWS I do have and it is also great because of the much better sound.
I like the ROSEWOOD original album and ahve the expansion not as a priority, probably because the few samples Lalaland always posts didn’t convince me it is that different… Well, and its for budgetary reasons, too. I just can’t “re-buy” scores I already have in some form… (I would if I could though ;-))
Yes, I hear you. I don’t rebuy all these things either; there are some soundtracks I have bought several times, and in some cases I cannot resist, but I weigh individually when I do this and if it’s worth it. In case of CLOSE ENCOUNTERS I make an exception though, as it may be my favorite John Williams score. When it comes to CLOSE ENCOUNTERS and E.T., I have the original album releases (on LP and CD), the original expansions (Arista/MCA) and the La-La Land 2CD sets. I think the earlier expansions were certainly fine and sufficient. I do like that the La-La Land E.T. contains the mysterious, spooky “Main Title”, I think that’s the only album which has that included, but it’s only a minute long, so only fanatics would buy the album for that. All CLOSE ENCOUNTERS expansions play slightly differently, but they are all great. CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND is perhaps my favorite John Williams score, and I do have every single version of it. The original Arista expansion plays fine and is great, I was very happy when that was released. The La-La Land 2CD set offers basically two expanded versions of the score: on Disc 1, the tracks are selected to reflect John Williams originally intended 2LP soundtrack album at the time of release (but which never happened, as we all know only a single LP version with a “pop single” was released), and on Disc 2 basically another version of the score made from versions of cues not on Disc 1. So all three “Close Encounters” expansions released offer a somewhat different listening experience.
ROSEWOOD as presented by La-La Land is not so much an “expansion” (as that implies it’s a sort of original album plus additional cues, or a longer presention), but a different presentation altogether. The film score as presented on Disc 1 is more dramatic, instrumental, less choir, the OST as presented on Disc 2 is a beautiful, introspective dramatic “Gospel” album. Both are very good and worth listening to, but “expansion” doesn’t really fit the description.
Thanks for the further explainations. I am so totally not immun to this but just have to get a bit more picky than I actually want to 😉 ROSEWOOD sound like something I should put on my list again. I like when Williams is more darker or even more dissonant than usually. CLOSE ENCOUNTERS is also a favorite of mine of his because of this because he rarely wrote that way.
I’ve been following the “John Williams doesn’t like film music” discussion on social media and messageboards — IMO much ado about nothing, as Tim himself points out in his response article.
I found myself rooting for Williams’ sentiment, and being mildly amused by the shock-like reactions of fans. In particular, this is a good JW quote, as taken from Tim Grieving’s book:
“Just the idea that film music has the same place in the concert hall as the best music in the canon is a mistaken notion, I think.” Furthermore, he criticized most film music as “ephemeral” and “fragmentary and, until somebody reconstructs it, it isn’t anything that we can even consider as a concert piece.”
I’m really rooting for Williams because of the last part, the reconstruction bit. Yes, I know he’s talking about concert suites and not soundtrack albums, but the same sentiment applies, so I found it appropriate in this thread. Film music, as it is, is terrible listening on a structural level unless you do something to it.
Where I depart from Williams is a a more general dismissal of film music’s virtues. What I like about it, as I’ve always said, is its “emotional immediacy”, the fact that it has to get to its emotional point more quickly and succinctly, per the limits of a scene. Not a lot of time for ornamentation like you can in concert music. That’s an attraction to me.
But yeah…..LOVE his sentiments on this issue, and that it riles up the purists and traditionalists.
IMO much ado about nothing,
I think, too and found it funny. Of course at first it sounde like te typical classical snob talking about film music that I heard 30+ years ago the first time when I relaly got into film scores. And Williams sounds always so modest about himself compared to the giants of music in general that he surely underestimates himself as well sometimes.
And he even is often right, especially many modern but also older scores could often use some work to flow as listening experience. As we often discussed here with C&C. I even think that often with GOlden Age scores ome Gerhard suites flow way better than more complete scores.
To be honest, I was a little shocked from the level of aggression of some fan’s reactions. Calling Williams senile, claiming he doesn’t know what he is talking about etc. I mean, these statements came from so called fans. This fan community is… weird.
As I said in the related FSM thread, I think in many ways, John Williams is right. Lots of film music is dull or uninspired, simply uninteresting. A lot of film music is just serviceable. It’s composers like Miklós Rózsa, Bernard Herrmann, Alex North, Leonard Rosenman, Jerry Goldsmith, Ennio Morricone that showed film music doesn’t have to be and can be more, but of course a lot of is just forgettable.
Then let’s not forget that Williams has a more modest demeanor to begin with, and some people don’t think much of what they themselves do or have accomplished. Marlon Brando was one of the most respected and revered actors in Hollywood ever, yet he didn’t think highly of acting as a profession, and — like Williams in the interview here — though of it as a good way to make money.
Some of the things Williams said are just blatantly obvious, like “the idea that film music has the same place in the concert hall as the best music in the canon is a mistaken notion, I think”. Well, yeah, to compare “film music” (hundreds of new ones every year) to “the best music in the canon”, well, yeah… can’t argue with that. A lot of film music is ephemeral and fragmentary, and just not very interesting.
However, film music can be as good as any “classical” work, it just usually isn’t.
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